New Delhi: In an exclusive interview with News9 Plus Editor Sandeep Unnithan, Rajeev Chandrasekhar, the Union Minister of State for Electronics and Information Technology, talks about the role artificial intelligence has played in influencing voters in the world’s largest elections. He also discusses, among other subjects, the BJP’s growing footprint in South India and East India, ways to tackle emerging threats such as deep-fakes and the need to create a new legislative framework for IT in India. Edited excerpts:
It’s a few hours after the exit polls and just two days before the results of elections 2024. I’m joined today by the Honourable Minister of State for Information Technology Rajeev Chandrasekhar. 300-plus seats for the BJP and the NDA in the exit polls. Is it too early to declare victory, yet?
I’m not sure if it’s early or late. Certainly the results will come out on June 4, the exit polls are clearly a confirmation of the widely-held belief that the people of India, having seen what Prime Minister Narendra Modi Ji has done in the last 10 years, want that momentum to continue, and want that progress to continue. Hundreds and thousands and crores of Indians have had their lives transformed. And therefore it was clear for many of us, way back when the elections were being planned or notified, that this would be an unprecedented third term for our Prime Minister. That is certainly looking more and more like a reality and fourth [June] will confirm it. But to the few people who held on to this sliver of hope that somehow their negativity and their misinformation will somehow derail the momentum of Prime Minister Narendra Modi ji and the people of India. I certainly think they will be disappointed today. And there’s a lot of people’s hopes shattered which is not a bad thing I think for the country, for people like them and their type of politics to be rejected again by the people of India.
Now the interesting part of the exit polls is that they seem to indicate a BJP surge in South India, which was literally the final frontier for your party. How enthused are you with this?
I think 2024 will certainly be a historic election in many ways. One is because of the fact that with every successive election, our Prime Minister has got an increased mandate. That is unprecedented and he has done this purely on the back of his performance. And the number of people supporting him have increasingly grown in each election. The second important aspect of these elections are the traditional ‘so-called’ weak areas for the BJP: The East and the South. This time around, you’ll see that the BJP is going to be the single-largest, national party — not just in the North and the West, but also the East and the South. And this takes on a deep irony because the INDI alliance, the DMK and Udhayanidhi Stalin and all those jokers, who had made it their business to build a narrative that somehow the South of India and the BJP are contradictions and to reject the BJP and Prime Minister Narendra Modi Ji’s development philosophy, I think the numbers and the votes and the seat share will show that the BJP will be the largest national party in South India. We’ll grow in Tamil Nadu, we’ll grow in Kerala, we’ll grow of course in Karnataka, Andhra and Telangana and leave all of these so-called narratives in the dust. So you’re absolutely right. This is an election where the BJP’s footprint in the South, and the BJP’s footprint in the East will dramatically expand.
You yourself are locked in a contest with a three-term sitting MP in Thiruvananthapuram and it’s a very tough fight. Will your commitment to the people of Kerala and Thiruvananthapuram continue irrespective of the result?
Look, our Prime Minister and the BJP government have remained steadfast in that we are committed to the development of every Indian, even in states and seats where there is no BJP MP or BJP government. And that will continue. Our Prime Minister is absolutely committed to Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas and I’m hopeful that in Kerala this time the BJP will succeed. The Prime Minister’s message, his development and individual candidates’ efforts on the ground will translate into electoral success. I’m deeply hopeful and on the fourth of June we will see.
Moving on to artificial intelligence. Last November, you represented India at an AI Safety Summit where the dominant conversation was on safety and trust. Six months later do you believe that AI was used to target and influence voters in India, during the largest elections in the world?
I think it is clear that there is now evidence spilling out unfortunately, belatedly, post the election — which is a certain degree of irresponsibility on part of these platforms — which needs to be discussed, that many political parties in India or at least some political parties in India, have invested heavily in a strategy that depended on misinformation, and therefore deep-fakes and AI in the cyberspace to push their political agenda. And the recent revelations by Meta and OpenAI show that the Congress Party had, in a sense, heavily invested in using YouTube influencers to push out a fake narrative. And that platforms like Open AI were being exploited to push deep-fakes and misinformation. And then Meta’s confirmation that many bots were being used, is certainly disturbing. Because it points to overseas interests, working perhaps with certain political parties in India and political leaders in India, trying to subvert our democracy. This is extremely dangerous, and certainly something that cannot be left unchallenged. We are the largest democracy in the world. We have almost 66 crore Indians who went to polls and to see that there are these types of technologies that work at a time when 89 crore Indians are connected on the internet, we are one of the world’s largest connected countries, it is certainly disturbing. It is something that we had flagged many months ago. Our honourable Prime Minister in the early part of this year in January had pointed to the risks of misuse of deep-fakes and misuse of AI. And I think the Congress Party has proved that these fears were not unfounded. And it is an important issue for all of us to be worried about as journalists, as public servants, as normal citizens who are engaged politically with their public representatives, that this is a very, very disturbing phenomenon and it needs to be addressed and addressed decisively.
When you say overseas interests, you refer to corporations, or countries….
You don’t have to be a genius to come to the conclusion that India’s rise, especially in the last 10 years under the Prime Minister, is not being seen very positively. There are inimical interests, geopolitically for us, around us, in our neighbourhood. There are corporate interests who had a free run for 10-20-30 years before 2014, who have a reason to trip up India’s growth and PM Narendra Modi Ji’s growth. Sometimes they make for really strange bedfellows and allies…corporate interests with geopolitical enemies, terrorists. All of these interests align to try and subvert our democracy. And so we should look at the worst case scenario. And I’m not conspiracy peddling, certainly not. But the evidence is out there. And the Congress certainly has tried to use disinformation, as you saw in the case of our Home Minister’s video being edited, and morphed, and in my case, images being morphed to peddle a narrative. So this is a dangerous phenomenon, and it is something that can impact the heart, at the very core of our democratic process. And it’s something that we should not allow and permit, given that we have elections coming up almost every year.
Q: You mentioned the word belated, Open AI has now issued a statement…
I’m extremely disappointed and I think all of us should be disappointed that these revelations from both Meta and OpenAI came when the elections were almost over. I can’t believe that anybody who’s trying to trip up the elections will do so only in the seventh phase. So, that doesn’t make any sense. Second is that I cannot believe that these platforms, who claim to be cutting-edge, do not notice these kinds of influence operations on their platforms, using their platform. So, if somebody takes a defence that I only came to know about this on the 30th of May or 31st of May, my response would be that I find that very hard to believe. And they will have to, in some sense, convince the next government about when did they come to know about this? If they came to know about this earlier, why did they sit on this information? What did they do to mitigate it at that time? Has some actual misinformation and influence operation taken place? If so, where and what? So these are all questions that need to be asked and answered.
Open AI’s statement mentions Operation Zero Zeno and STOIC, a political campaign management firm in Israel, could be behind this. Have you ordered an inquiry into this?
I have said it is for the next government to decide what will happen. And I certainly don’t want to second guess that. But certainly as the incumbent Minister, I have said today that this poses a huge risk to our democracy, and it is something that cannot be left unaddressed and unscrutinised and un-investigated, which implies that it must be investigated, scrutinised and understood by the next government.
Q: What are the specific laws in the IT Act that address this?
Currently, there is a total prohibition, a total ban under the IT Rules, under 31B5 for any type of misinformation to be present on any platform, and it makes it the legal obligation of the platform to detect misinformation and to remove or prosecute the originators of this disinformation. So under the current legislation and current rules, these platforms will have to pass the test that they did act responsibly, or not. So that is something that the ministry is already taking cognisance of.
You have a draft AI framework regulation likely to be out in July. The next government will possibly look at that. So is this part of that?
This is a question that has been asked of me and I have answered earlier. Our legislative framework needs to evolve and we need to create a new legislative framework. Our IT Act is 23-24 years old, and certainly did not anticipate AI. So I think there’s an argument that a new comprehensive legislative framework, a draft Digital India bill, be prepared that deals with not just the contemporary tech ecosystem, and all the safety and trust issues and innovation opportunities, but also these emerging technologies like AI and all of these other emerging technologies and what safety interest issue that they represent, as well as the opportunities that need to be pursued.
So I think there is a clear argument for a new legislative framework that deals with these things very decisively, and puts the obligation of safety and trust on these platforms.
There’s a lot of talk about the government’s 100-day plan…Do you think AI will be part of it?
I can’t comment on that. That is something that the honourable Prime Minister will lay out in front of the country after the fourth of June.
Moving on to cyber fraud, you mentioned we are one of the largest connected nations in the world. There has been a wave of online cyber frauds this year. Indians have lost Rs 1,750 crore to cyber frauds in the first four months of 2024. What mechanism are you proposing to tackle cyber fraud?
We need, again, a very comprehensive legal solution for cyber fraud, because under our system, law and order is a state subject, and almost 90% of cyber frauds and I think that number is climbing, are inter-jurisdictional. So you have the criminal sitting in, let’s say, in some other country, and the crime is being committed on a victim in one state in India. Or the second scenario is that the criminal is in another state in India, and victim is in another state. So it requires a framework where at least three police jurisdictions in our country have to cooperate for cyber-crime, right? Balance this requirement, along with the reality that in many states the police are still not equipped with basic cyber forensics and cyber cyber-investigation capability. Some states are very good. Maharashtra is good. Karnataka is good. But some states don’t consider this as a high priority at all. We have done a lot of thinking and studying in the last one year on this. It requires obviously a framework for countries to cooperate at one level and then within India, given the law or the state subject of framework with state police departments cooperate on cyber-crimes. It is not trivial. Nor is it easy to do. Given the way we are organised as a country and given the way the internet is organised. But it’s something that we certainly need to address very quickly, given our Prime Minister’s commitment for a safe and trusted Internet.
In some of these crimes, especially this year, the perpetrators seem to be sitting in Southeast Asian countries, Cambodia, Thailand, Myanmar. How do you handle the jurisdiction issues in these cases?
That’s exactly right. Say I’m a victim in a state of Bihar. Or I’m a victim in the state of Karnataka, Kerala, and I am the victim of a phishing expedition or phishing scam by somebody sitting in Cambodia. There are many dynamics here. One is lack of cyber awareness, at the individual level. Best practices of what to avoid what not to avoid. So that is one basic issue. The second is the local police, let us say I’m in Kerala, the local police are more interested in big-ticket crimes, high-profile crimes and if you go say ‘hi boss I lost 599 rupees’ or 1099 rupees they will laugh you out of the police station. Third sort of a hurdle to be crossed is the fact that there are two jurisdictions. There’s Kerala and there’s Cambodia. Or you can imagine the problems for an SI who is dealing with the DYFI and SFI on a day-to-day basis, that type of crime, to be suddenly told I’ve been phished by somebody sitting in Cambodia. So there are a lot of issues to do: policing capacity at the state level number one. Number two, these international global partnerships and frameworks that have to evolve, to protect citizens in both countries.
So could this be the chink in the armour in digital India?
It certainly is and I have said this very, very openly. And it is something that we have to accept that as digitalisation increases and as more and more citizens use the internet, their individual safety and security vis-à-vis cyber-crimes, cyber fraud also increases. Like I said, for different reasons. One is your own personal awareness and knowledge about what to avoid what not to avoid. The second is the local policing capacity where the crime is reported. And the third is the fact that most of these crimes are multi-jurisdictional crimes, which requires a framework that is missing currently. That must be a priority for the next government.
Coming back to the states. There are four critical elections coming up in the next eight months or so. There’s Jharkhand, Maharashtra, Haryana and of course, Delhi. How critical will these elections be? And have preparations already begun for it?
I think every election is critical for the people of those states, especially when people today increasingly want the government to deliver, to perform. The expectations are increasingly about politics of performance. They want a better future for the children, they want better education, better public services. So I think every election is critical for me. And our party, our leadership, looks at elections as an opportunity to serve the people. Where we are already in power, we go back with what we have done and ask for a renewed mandate. Where we are in the opposition, we go with how we can do a better job than the existing government and we present our facts and promises to the people. And I’m increasingly confident after being a Lok Sabha candidate myself and having seen on the ground the effect and the impact of Narenda Modi Ji in the last 10 years, that the only tool today, the only weapon that the opposition has is their campaign of lies and campaign of misinformation and campaign of fear. And as people see through that, increasingly, the party of choice, the party that they know will deliver for them, politics of performance is the BJP and the leadership of Prime Minister Narendra Modi.
This might be a little ahead of the curve but have you already started preparing for the 2029 elections?
It depends what you mean by preparation. When our Prime Minister says I’ve already got a 100-day agenda. He is a person who has made politics about not wasting a moment, not wasting a day. If you take that on one hand, and then understand very clearly that every election is a referendum and an analysis of your report card. And if you work for 1865 days, work hard, make sure people are getting the benefits of that work, and that everybody gets it regardless of whether they are from any region, gender, caste, religion. Then you are preparing for 1865 days. We are not the Congress Party who surfaces 90 days before the election campaign. Depending on where you are, you wear the Hindu outfit, or your Muslim outfit, or Christian outfit, pretend to be things that you are not. That is not our way of working. For us, the campaign starts from the first day that you have a mandate. And that campaign lasts for 1865 days. That is hard work. It is impacting people’s lives and that report card is what you take to people.
